1 00:00:22,999 --> 00:00:09,090 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,429 --> 00:00:25,620 hello and welcome to the skeptics on 3 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:29,439 episode number 395 for the fifteenth of 4 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:32,650 may 2016 Richard Saunders here with you 5 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:35,050 from Sydney Australia the weather has 6 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:38,320 changed winter is coming sounds like a 7 00:00:41,939 --> 00:00:40,210 game of thrones does not winter is 8 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:41,949 coming i'm pleased to say because i do 9 00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:45,250 enjoy the colder weather dressing up in 10 00:00:50,849 --> 00:00:48,910 Nice ragging up sort of winter gear but 11 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:50,859 enough about the weather what's coming 12 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:53,440 up on today's show we're going to be 13 00:01:00,990 --> 00:00:57,489 talking about quackery in kemah shops 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:01,000 pharmacies drugstores yes when you go to 15 00:01:07,070 --> 00:01:03,850 get your aspirin and things that really 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:07,080 work you can also pick up a bottle of 17 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:10,810 magic quackery homeopathy that sort of 18 00:01:15,780 --> 00:01:13,510 thing a report about quackery in 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:15,790 pharmacies coming up to start off the 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:18,250 skeptic zone then we join Maynard for 21 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:21,130 Maenads spooky action today Maenads 22 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:23,500 going to be interviewing a guy well 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:25,720 known to triple j listeners in australia 24 00:01:32,130 --> 00:01:28,690 that's the triple j radio network known 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:32,140 as the doctor not a verte doctor from 26 00:01:37,650 --> 00:01:35,290 the BBC now this guy was an announcer on 27 00:01:40,050 --> 00:01:37,660 triple j by the name of lindsey 28 00:01:42,210 --> 00:01:40,060 MacDougall now main are denied bumped 29 00:01:44,550 --> 00:01:42,220 into lindsey he was giving a talk at the 30 00:01:46,500 --> 00:01:44,560 podcasting sydney meetup group the other 31 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:46,510 night which was very interesting hello 32 00:01:51,030 --> 00:01:48,970 to Siobhan who runs that and her podcast 33 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:51,040 at knowing animals but we'll find out 34 00:01:57,330 --> 00:01:53,680 what the doctor Lindsay mcdougal thinks 35 00:01:59,760 --> 00:01:57,340 of skepticism and he's skeptical 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:01:59,770 attitudes towards things and following 37 00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:01,210 that it's a quick promo for Maynard's 38 00:02:06,090 --> 00:02:04,390 podcast bunga bunga yes Mina does have a 39 00:02:08,369 --> 00:02:06,100 life outside the skeptics her and I'm 40 00:02:11,130 --> 00:02:08,379 pleased to say and he and Tim Ferguson 41 00:02:14,789 --> 00:02:11,140 make this wonderful podcast funny funny 42 00:02:16,589 --> 00:02:14,799 insightful funny bunga bunga then to 43 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:16,599 round off the show it's an update about 44 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:18,910 the University of Wollongong 45 00:02:23,790 --> 00:02:21,450 winning a PhD on a thesis concerning 46 00:02:26,850 --> 00:02:23,800 anti-vaccination conspiracy theories 47 00:02:27,870 --> 00:02:26,860 what were they thinking well that's 48 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:27,880 enough for me I'm going to run 49 00:02:30,540 --> 00:02:29,230 downstairs i'm not going to raid the 50 00:02:33,260 --> 00:02:30,550 fridge this time I'm going to put 51 00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:33,270 together my collection of origami 52 00:02:40,010 --> 00:02:37,000 photography which I enjoy doing I've got 53 00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:40,020 another exhibition coming up at cafe 54 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:43,780 2042 in Newtown here in Sydney and if 55 00:02:48,420 --> 00:02:45,220 you're in Newtown and you drop by the 56 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:48,430 cafe 2042 in King Street you'll be able 57 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:50,740 to see a an exhibition of some of my 58 00:02:55,260 --> 00:02:53,350 work well I might grab a a cookie on the 59 00:03:00,580 --> 00:02:55,270 way well I'm doing that I hope you enjoy 60 00:03:00,590 --> 00:03:19,780 you 61 00:03:23,660 --> 00:03:22,099 lately in the news here in Australia 62 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:23,670 we've noticed there's a push for 63 00:03:30,289 --> 00:03:27,560 naturopath to be more prominent in 64 00:03:33,110 --> 00:03:30,299 pharmacies now this problem has been 65 00:03:37,099 --> 00:03:33,120 ongoing for many years I well remember 66 00:03:39,979 --> 00:03:37,109 the time zone reporter and prominent 67 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:39,989 skeptic dr. rachy dr. Rachel Dunlop and 68 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:42,510 I went into a pharmacy to ask for some 69 00:03:48,709 --> 00:03:45,180 advice can't quite remember what it was 70 00:03:50,809 --> 00:03:48,719 I think we were looking for flu 71 00:03:53,690 --> 00:03:50,819 injection or something like that a flu 72 00:03:57,349 --> 00:03:53,700 shot nevertheless there somebody came up 73 00:04:01,490 --> 00:03:57,359 to offer to help us and then began 74 00:04:04,369 --> 00:04:01,500 telling us that the homeopathic range 75 00:04:07,250 --> 00:04:04,379 that they were selling it was really 76 00:04:11,089 --> 00:04:07,260 based on science and when we pressed her 77 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:11,099 on that she got rather short with us 78 00:04:15,949 --> 00:04:13,290 they don't like being asked questions 79 00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:15,959 which brings me to a story by Jane 80 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:18,539 Hansen published on the 8th of May at 81 00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:21,570 the Daily Telegraph comdata you entitled 82 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:25,080 employing naturopaths in chemists akin 83 00:04:31,370 --> 00:04:28,440 to mcdonald's style do you want fries 84 00:04:34,219 --> 00:04:31,380 with that marketing and jane says that 85 00:04:37,070 --> 00:04:34,229 pharmacists have blasted attempts by the 86 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:37,080 vitamin and supplement industry to 87 00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:39,210 employ naturopaths in chemists as a 88 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:42,780 sales gimmick and fear it will diminish 89 00:04:49,339 --> 00:04:45,330 the credibility of their profession well 90 00:04:52,879 --> 00:04:49,349 she's absolutely right it already has it 91 00:04:55,850 --> 00:04:52,889 already does people people go into 92 00:04:59,629 --> 00:04:55,860 pharmacies or in this country and you 93 00:05:02,360 --> 00:04:59,639 would expect real advice based on 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:02,370 scientific evidence people treat 95 00:05:08,779 --> 00:05:05,490 pharmacies as an extension of our system 96 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:08,789 of scientific medicine how those of you 97 00:05:13,430 --> 00:05:11,430 in Australia just walk into your nearest 98 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:13,440 big pharmacy and you'll probably find 99 00:05:20,089 --> 00:05:16,050 homeopathy some farmers 100 00:05:23,719 --> 00:05:20,099 I've noticed we're selling our snoring 101 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:23,729 rings based on acupressure points the 102 00:05:32,990 --> 00:05:29,430 infamous power band range of those bands 103 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:33,000 that used to put on your wrist I bought 104 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:36,449 one example called the hot band from the 105 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:39,300 pharmacy believe it or not these are the 106 00:05:45,219 --> 00:05:42,300 plastic things with Holograms in them so 107 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:45,229 sadly a lot of thumbs his chemist shops 108 00:05:51,649 --> 00:05:48,330 do sell a lot of Wu Jiang goes on to say 109 00:05:55,490 --> 00:05:51,659 that Ian car Atari based pharmacist re 110 00:05:58,100 --> 00:05:55,500 Isaiah a city in New South Wales said 111 00:06:00,320 --> 00:05:58,110 that he was dismayed by the trend of 112 00:06:03,010 --> 00:06:00,330 naturopaths employed by supplement 113 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:03,020 companies and pharmacists who work as 114 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:05,969 in-store consultants he said many 115 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:08,370 supplements were not evidence-based and 116 00:06:12,529 --> 00:06:10,889 didn't do what they claimed well it's 117 00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:12,539 got that right quote i'm going to 118 00:06:16,939 --> 00:06:14,310 campaign against the placement of 119 00:06:20,269 --> 00:06:16,949 naturopaths in the store because it's 120 00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:20,279 message is contrary to the dispensing 121 00:06:24,980 --> 00:06:22,830 side and i don't want to mislead clients 122 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:24,990 with a nonsense like naturopathy 123 00:06:31,670 --> 00:06:28,050 historically we have always had vitamins 124 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:31,680 as a healthy line to sell but now we 125 00:06:36,620 --> 00:06:33,750 have greater access to evidence-based 126 00:06:40,010 --> 00:06:36,630 information and we are in a position to 127 00:06:42,379 --> 00:06:40,020 say no vitamin B will not give you more 128 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:42,389 energy and glucosamine is questionable 129 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:46,050 for arthritis and quote he said research 130 00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:50,490 by Roy Morgan shows that in 2015 8.1 131 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:53,190 million Australians board vitamins or 132 00:06:59,089 --> 00:06:55,770 supplements in any given six month 133 00:07:02,570 --> 00:06:59,099 period 1.5 million more than the same 134 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:02,580 period in 2011 the industry is now worth 135 00:07:12,409 --> 00:07:06,960 3.1 billion yes there's big money to be 136 00:07:15,709 --> 00:07:12,419 made in selling supplements questionable 137 00:07:18,110 --> 00:07:15,719 supplements because largely they're 138 00:07:21,529 --> 00:07:18,120 being sold through pharmacies and people 139 00:07:23,990 --> 00:07:21,539 again equate something being sold in a 140 00:07:27,140 --> 00:07:24,000 pharmacy with something that should be 141 00:07:29,090 --> 00:07:27,150 real evidence based may be there don't 142 00:07:31,310 --> 00:07:29,100 even think that far at least real at 143 00:07:34,580 --> 00:07:31,320 least it should work jane goes on the 144 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:34,590 same nearly half of all women buy 145 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:36,810 supplements and more than a third of all 146 00:07:42,590 --> 00:07:39,090 men despite there being little evidence 147 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:42,600 of their benefit i remember that when i 148 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:44,220 went to a pharmacy and i saw this 149 00:07:49,430 --> 00:07:46,790 storing ring you put on your finger 150 00:07:54,380 --> 00:07:49,440 presses the acupuncture acupressure 151 00:07:56,450 --> 00:07:54,390 point then stops you snoring and i had a 152 00:07:58,700 --> 00:07:56,460 chat to the nice lady behind the counter 153 00:08:00,050 --> 00:07:58,710 and i said you know i don't think 154 00:08:02,630 --> 00:08:00,060 there's any evidence that these things 155 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:02,640 really work and the the point they press 156 00:08:08,690 --> 00:08:05,790 is non-existent and she said quite 157 00:08:11,450 --> 00:08:08,700 honestly I we saw them because they sell 158 00:08:13,730 --> 00:08:11,460 people want them the story goes on last 159 00:08:16,220 --> 00:08:13,740 week vitamin and supplement giant 160 00:08:18,980 --> 00:08:16,230 Blackmore's advertised for naturopaths 161 00:08:21,710 --> 00:08:18,990 to join the quote in store health and 162 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:21,720 well-being team in quote across key 163 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:24,870 Sydney pharmacies dr. Leslie Braun the 164 00:08:29,690 --> 00:08:27,240 director of Blackmore's Institute said 165 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:29,700 pharmacies were a key destination for 166 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:32,880 complementary medicines no dear quote 167 00:08:37,459 --> 00:08:35,370 many pharmacies are supplementing the 168 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:37,469 expertise of the pharmacist with a 169 00:08:43,339 --> 00:08:41,010 qualified naturopath in store to provide 170 00:08:46,190 --> 00:08:43,349 additional advice on appropriate 171 00:08:48,950 --> 00:08:46,200 complementary medicine as well as diet 172 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:48,960 and lifestyle information end quote dr. 173 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:51,360 Braun rejected criticism and set a 174 00:08:57,110 --> 00:08:54,570 pharmacy Guild survey of 700 pharmacists 175 00:08:59,060 --> 00:08:57,120 found that half would employ a 176 00:09:02,120 --> 00:08:59,070 naturopath I don't know what the side of 177 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:02,130 that quote interestingly the guild 178 00:09:06,710 --> 00:09:04,110 report goes on to explain that 179 00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:06,720 sixty-five percent of pharmacy customers 180 00:09:11,150 --> 00:09:09,150 taking complementary medicines that is 181 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:11,160 Australian consumers think it's 182 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:12,990 important for a naturopath to be 183 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:15,930 available in a pharmacy when quote she 184 00:09:20,630 --> 00:09:18,810 said quote it is entirely reasonable for 185 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:20,640 a pharmacist to seek the assistant of an 186 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:23,040 appropriately qualified naturopath in 187 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:25,770 delivering quality information on to 188 00:09:30,350 --> 00:09:28,620 their customers in quote but Mr Carr 189 00:09:33,590 --> 00:09:30,360 said pharmacies were selling supplements 190 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:33,600 to try and claw back profits that had 191 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:35,490 diminished with medications that had 192 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:36,450 come off patent 193 00:09:44,210 --> 00:09:40,220 another side nerd many years ago our 194 00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:44,220 2004 my good friend Phil Plait known as 195 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:45,870 the bad astronomer who appears on the 196 00:09:51,170 --> 00:09:48,210 skeptic zone from time to time made his 197 00:09:54,140 --> 00:09:51,180 first visit to Australia and I remember 198 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:54,150 collecting him from the airport a bit 199 00:09:59,390 --> 00:09:56,370 jet-lagged he is very happy to be here 200 00:10:02,450 --> 00:09:59,400 and we had a nice coffee not far from 201 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:02,460 where I live nice little cafe then we 202 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:04,530 stroll across the street to the pharmacy 203 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:06,810 where you wanted to pick up sundry items 204 00:10:14,510 --> 00:10:11,310 I guess and there was um this weird sort 205 00:10:17,450 --> 00:10:14,520 of machine in there with the screen and 206 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:17,460 buttons were you you could ask questions 207 00:10:23,390 --> 00:10:19,050 press the appropriate button to get 208 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:23,400 health advice and one of the bits of 209 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:26,510 advice it was dispensing via the screen 210 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:30,570 was to recommend a certain homeopathic 211 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:34,500 treatment for burns now we were both 212 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:36,750 pretty gobsmacked I one of those I 213 00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:38,850 wonder if those machines are still about 214 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:41,120 I haven't seen one for a long time 215 00:10:47,510 --> 00:10:44,370 homeopathic treatment for burns in a 216 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:47,520 pharmacy it says a lot I think we read 217 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:50,310 on in 2011 the pharmacy guild was 218 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:52,350 pilloried for striking a deal with 219 00:10:58,310 --> 00:10:55,770 Blackmore's akin to a quote do you want 220 00:11:00,980 --> 00:10:58,320 fries with that I'm quote McDonald's 221 00:11:03,140 --> 00:11:00,990 style marketing push the guild which 222 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:03,150 represents ninety-four percent of 223 00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:08,010 Australia's 5450 pharmacists ditched the 224 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:10,590 deal there you go the president of the 225 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:13,590 Australian Medical Association dr. Brian 226 00:11:18,830 --> 00:11:16,650 owler said pharmacists need to 227 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:18,840 reevaluate their professional roles 228 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:22,530 quote these things run the risk of 229 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:24,630 diminishing the professional reputation 230 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:27,330 of pharmacists and suggest they are more 231 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:30,030 of a shop rather than a place to seek 232 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:32,490 advice about medicines and grow tea set 233 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:35,370 good point Greg Turnbull spokesman for 234 00:11:39,950 --> 00:11:37,770 the pharmacy Guild of Australia said if 235 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:39,960 members employed complementary 236 00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:42,570 therapists they should quote be mindful 237 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:45,060 of their duty of care and responsibility 238 00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:48,150 for any advice or service provided 239 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:50,280 in their pharmacy end quote and that 240 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:53,850 comes to us from Jane Hansen who I do 241 00:11:58,820 --> 00:11:56,130 quote from time to time on the skeptic 242 00:12:02,680 --> 00:11:58,830 zone she is quite active in her 243 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:02,690 condemnation as a reporter of the 244 00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:07,170 anti-vaccination brigade mob group crew 245 00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:11,100 as we'd like to say there's a zany wacky 246 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:13,680 people at the anti-vaccination crowd so 247 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:15,540 there you go and maybe this is the same 248 00:12:23,950 --> 00:12:19,110 situation in your country or your part 249 00:12:27,140 --> 00:12:23,960 of Australia at pharmacies chemist shops 250 00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:27,150 not only dispense sound advice and 251 00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:30,720 medicines that really work but also ah 252 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:35,190 what we might loosely call whoo those of 253 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:37,050 you in the UK I think know especially 254 00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:38,670 what I'm talking about in fact the last 255 00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:40,940 time I was in the UK when I attended I 256 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:45,590 the QED convention in Manchester my wind 257 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:49,050 into a boots pharmacy and I bought 258 00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:52,590 myself a nice vial of homeopathic what 259 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:54,270 was it now sleeping pills or something 260 00:12:58,610 --> 00:12:56,970 like that but for many years and there's 261 00:13:00,080 --> 00:12:58,620 a video online in fact i'll link to it 262 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:00,090 in the show notes there is a video 263 00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:03,810 online from the 2004 australian skeptics 264 00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:06,030 convention where I in a group of 265 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:08,040 prominent skeptics including dr. Phil 266 00:13:14,270 --> 00:13:12,360 Plait guzzled many are homeopathic 267 00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:14,280 sleeping tablets but people do this all 268 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:16,350 around the world James Randy's been 269 00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:17,970 doing this for many years man in fact 270 00:13:23,860 --> 00:13:21,200 part of the 10 23 campaign initiated by 271 00:13:26,330 --> 00:13:23,870 people like Michael marshal at 272 00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:26,340 merseyside skeptics well that's all 273 00:13:31,610 --> 00:13:28,860 about consuming large amounts of 274 00:13:35,210 --> 00:13:31,620 homeopathic pills what can we do about 275 00:13:36,860 --> 00:13:35,220 it well I'm not sure I think the wheels 276 00:13:39,470 --> 00:13:36,870 are in motion they have been in motion 277 00:13:42,770 --> 00:13:39,480 for a long time more and more people are 278 00:13:44,570 --> 00:13:42,780 realizing this stuff as whoo but at the 279 00:13:50,060 --> 00:13:44,580 same time more and more people are 280 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:50,070 probably using it anyway it's the it's 281 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:53,130 the classic the classic tale it's the 282 00:13:58,410 --> 00:13:55,490 Moriarty in Sherlock Holmes it's the 283 00:14:01,170 --> 00:13:58,420 Superman and lex luthor the 284 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:01,180 man in the Joker now what's I does want 285 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:03,730 well I guess that's up to you credit to 286 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:05,470 Jane Henson for that report and you can 287 00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:09,130 read her reports at Daily Telegraph com 288 00:14:30,509 --> 00:14:28,029 au hi this is Cassandra president of the 289 00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:30,519 Brisbane skeptics society in sunny 290 00:14:35,069 --> 00:14:32,769 Queensland which well by Sydney 291 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:35,079 standards is the north side of Australia 292 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:38,050 I'd like to invite you to join us at one 293 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:41,050 of our many events not only do we have 294 00:14:46,259 --> 00:14:43,570 weekly social gatherings all over 295 00:14:48,569 --> 00:14:46,269 Brisbane and monthly lectures we get 296 00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:48,579 along so well that once or twice a year 297 00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:51,220 we escape our city confines in Brisbane 298 00:14:55,650 --> 00:14:53,830 and go travelling together 299 00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:55,660 we're always on the lookout for new 300 00:15:02,040 --> 00:14:59,050 ideas new perspectives and definitely 301 00:15:07,860 --> 00:15:02,050 new speakers want to find out more 302 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:07,870 please visit us at www.credit org or 303 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:10,330 search for Brisbane skeptics society on 304 00:15:27,810 --> 00:15:13,090 Facebook or Twitter we hope to see you 305 00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:27,820 soon his may not spooky action at the 306 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:33,910 look no edges is a hub hub there's a bit 307 00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:35,720 of a deep hub hub going on down here at 308 00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:37,400 the moment and it's yeah well it's a bit 309 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:39,590 like a shadowy cabal is planning 310 00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:41,090 something down here isn't it mr. Lindsey 311 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:43,760 yeah or we've arrived at the end of like 312 00:15:47,830 --> 00:15:45,410 a really long party like we're in the 313 00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:47,840 nightclub it's for I am everyone's left 314 00:15:50,350 --> 00:15:49,400 and all and the only people that are 315 00:15:52,090 --> 00:15:50,360 left are the people that are just all 316 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:52,100 scattered from the not being awake for 317 00:15:55,210 --> 00:15:53,810 too long that is distinctly what it 318 00:15:57,100 --> 00:15:55,220 feels like could you please introduce 319 00:15:58,420 --> 00:15:57,110 yourself to the skeptic zone audience my 320 00:16:01,090 --> 00:15:58,430 name is Lindsey MacDougall I play guitar 321 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:01,100 in frenzel rom and and and much like 322 00:16:04,750 --> 00:16:02,810 Maynard I had a stint in trouble J and 323 00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:04,760 the great thing is he's nickname is the 324 00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:05,870 doctor which means you've got a 325 00:16:09,490 --> 00:16:06,950 prescription pad on you at all times 326 00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:09,500 haven't you it's only if only I do know 327 00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:11,630 people that do have these these kind of 328 00:16:16,210 --> 00:16:13,640 things but I haven't but that these days 329 00:16:18,460 --> 00:16:16,220 the regulations you know back in the day 330 00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:18,470 I'm sure main are you would have if you 331 00:16:22,270 --> 00:16:20,270 can write anything that's an S 4 i'll 332 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:22,280 take no problem at all i don't know what 333 00:16:26,770 --> 00:16:24,590 that is it shows you like them it's a 334 00:16:28,630 --> 00:16:26,780 positive thing but we've been here at 335 00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:28,640 the sydney podcasters wenchang to you 336 00:16:32,980 --> 00:16:30,200 about an enchanting you've actually 337 00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:32,990 quite the skeptic aren't you well I come 338 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:34,670 from I come from the position I'm not 339 00:16:38,110 --> 00:16:36,470 just one of those you know so I guess 340 00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:38,120 I'm a born again skip do you like was 341 00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:40,220 brought up I was brought up well I was 342 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:41,660 brought up quite religious I went to a 343 00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:43,250 Catholic school I played in the church 344 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:45,740 group which was an excellent way to meet 345 00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:47,450 girl it's me to be tough and say yeah I 346 00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:49,190 did to meet girls but I didn't I also 347 00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:50,720 did it because that's how you got into 348 00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:52,880 heaven or whatever I can't like any x 349 00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,560 catholic have you shaken off the guilt 350 00:16:58,540 --> 00:16:56,480 thing completely or the whole veganism 351 00:17:00,250 --> 00:16:58,550 we've come from the guilt thing in the 352 00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:00,260 first place I'm sure I went when I 353 00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:01,670 joined friends are on Jason because 354 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:03,110 Jason was brought Anglican the author 355 00:17:06,819 --> 00:17:05,329 atheist he used to make jokes about the 356 00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:06,829 Catholic guilt but i never knew it as a 357 00:17:10,689 --> 00:17:09,110 thing i think my parents weren't all 358 00:17:12,460 --> 00:17:10,699 that big into the k wasn't the big sort 359 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:12,470 of you know sparing the rod kind of 360 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:14,390 catholic guilt thing Catholic upbringing 361 00:17:17,230 --> 00:17:15,920 it although there was lots of talked 362 00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:17,240 about death and stuff but I just didn't 363 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:19,400 get I just didn't I don't think I felt 364 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:20,510 the guilt but then people told me 365 00:17:24,010 --> 00:17:21,890 subsequently that I have I don't know 366 00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:24,020 but also my mum owned a health food shop 367 00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:25,520 and got into health foods because I was 368 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:26,750 a little very allergic of things growing 369 00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:28,730 up couldn't eat the same fruit two days 370 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:30,060 in a row 371 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:32,250 full on hyperactivity and skin 372 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:34,290 conditions and stuff and so I'm getting 373 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:35,310 to health forgot in the food combining 374 00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:37,410 which helped you know settle some of 375 00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:39,240 that stuff and then she went further 376 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:41,460 down that rabbit hole into the esoteric 377 00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:45,480 world of kinesiology homeopathy all the 378 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:47,550 geez that i'm sure you guys like to talk 379 00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:48,810 about on the skeptics and quite a lot 380 00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:52,200 and things like a channeling i spoke I 381 00:17:56,180 --> 00:17:54,990 spoke to a channel once but she did it 382 00:17:59,390 --> 00:17:56,190 you know what like I was I spoke to a 383 00:18:01,610 --> 00:17:59,400 channel who would channel various past 384 00:18:03,290 --> 00:18:01,620 lives or I guess other you know people 385 00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:03,300 from the up from the beyond to talk 386 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:05,310 about my food allergies and how would 387 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:07,260 this help in any way with Sir Isaac 388 00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:08,850 Newton have some things to say he 389 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:10,980 probably would yes a away from apples 390 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:14,910 wow this is just really yeah I don't 391 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:15,900 know this I don't know the science 392 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:17,910 behind it from Big River I'm really sure 393 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:19,740 facialist but that's one time I've never 394 00:18:22,910 --> 00:18:21,330 heard of that one being used for allergy 395 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:22,920 absolutely for health for health 396 00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:26,010 conditions my mom took me to a channel 397 00:18:29,930 --> 00:18:28,380 and didn't I mean I don't remember what 398 00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:29,940 she told me I imagine it was just a 399 00:18:35,030 --> 00:18:32,220 combination of food related things I 400 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:35,040 didn't have to there was no no I wasn't 401 00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:36,330 reaching across the other side for a 402 00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:38,280 Cure she was just drawing on her various 403 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,230 skills this particular skill set or 404 00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,200 whatever now as a vegan on balance is 405 00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:45,360 morrissey a plus or a minus to the vegan 406 00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:47,700 cause so many worst vegans and Morrissey 407 00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:50,040 I mean at the end of it or you can just 408 00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:51,720 block out the silly things he says the 409 00:18:57,140 --> 00:18:54,510 delve into various racist things and 410 00:18:58,700 --> 00:18:57,150 monica's things at the pop you know I 411 00:19:00,740 --> 00:18:58,710 think people like him and when people 412 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:00,750 people can whinge about people like him 413 00:19:04,550 --> 00:19:02,370 and there's lots of other you just go he 414 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:04,560 was in the Smiths might even sang in the 415 00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,810 Smiths shut up oh shut up exactly right 416 00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:08,640 exactly right so many people get a Hall 417 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:09,780 Pass because of the amazing music 418 00:19:13,460 --> 00:19:11,640 they've written as a vegan how do you 419 00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:13,470 feel about his hammer over the head 420 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:15,600 approach like he does live with Meat Is 421 00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:18,450 Murder we shows quite violent scenes on 422 00:19:21,230 --> 00:19:19,740 the screen that are real real yeah I 423 00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:21,240 think that people should be exposed to 424 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:23,340 that stuff and I don't think people go 425 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:25,010 to a morrissey gig 426 00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:27,770 not you know like I unprepared you know 427 00:19:30,190 --> 00:19:28,820 people they're probably not too many 428 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:30,200 more as your vans these days I think I 429 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:31,520 might just pop along to this guy of 430 00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:33,050 Morsy yeah I'll go straight from 431 00:19:36,190 --> 00:19:34,550 mcdonalds to there so that's fine i mean 432 00:19:38,350 --> 00:19:36,200 i like when people do things like that 433 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:38,360 they use their giant star power like 434 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:40,430 when KD Lang canceled a gig a casino 435 00:19:43,810 --> 00:19:42,110 maybe 15 years ago because she could 436 00:19:44,860 --> 00:19:43,820 smell meat coming out of the kitchen you 437 00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:44,870 know although she published have 438 00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:46,190 prepared a little bit earlier and sent 439 00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:48,110 them a nice email but I think it's I 440 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:49,940 think it's certainly not their duty to 441 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:51,710 do that and I would never say you must 442 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:54,170 as a vegan always always appear po 443 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:56,090 faison's and sing about the horrific of 444 00:20:00,040 --> 00:19:57,890 the animal industry but if they get to 445 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:00,050 do that just once in a while and maybe a 446 00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:01,190 few people it'll be the people that 447 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:02,630 secret finger up at him but there's also 448 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:04,610 the other people to go this guy that I 449 00:20:07,540 --> 00:20:05,930 really likes into this other thing I 450 00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:07,550 might pursue it further and it's kind of 451 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:09,680 nice and with your travels with triple j 452 00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:12,110 with bandwidth extreme veganism from 453 00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:13,940 time to time you've also been exposed to 454 00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:15,350 a few theories along the way you 455 00:20:18,130 --> 00:20:17,120 mentioned that people often think oh 456 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:18,140 well you'll be down with the whole 457 00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:20,480 chemtrails thing and you're not exactly 458 00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:22,160 if I'm correct yeah it's a problem that 459 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:25,100 happens in any any open minded group I 460 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:28,490 think you know that people think you are 461 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:30,860 yeah you're into veganism you're into 462 00:20:33,460 --> 00:20:32,630 health food so you know what do you 463 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:33,470 think about the government trying to 464 00:20:36,730 --> 00:20:34,700 control us with a fluoride in the water 465 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:36,740 and Starlin just things that are so 466 00:20:43,330 --> 00:20:40,090 easily disproven I mean I don't know 467 00:20:45,670 --> 00:20:43,340 that you got a pet one that you hate I i 468 00:20:47,590 --> 00:20:45,680 hate the fluoride one because I've heard 469 00:20:48,730 --> 00:20:47,600 it recently from a friend of mine who 470 00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:48,740 was talking to my friends bringing up 471 00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:51,500 kids and advocating for only bottled 472 00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:54,590 water and I just like just look at the 473 00:20:58,030 --> 00:20:56,240 facts I mean look at though just go 474 00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:58,040 above that go across the border and look 475 00:21:01,330 --> 00:20:59,390 at people's teeth in Queensland her 476 00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:01,340 about 30 or 40 years old I didn't have 477 00:21:03,850 --> 00:21:03,020 the flu ride I did a big pretty simple 478 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:03,860 thing while I was waiting for my 479 00:21:06,910 --> 00:21:05,330 dentists saturday i just said the dental 480 00:21:08,170 --> 00:21:06,920 assistant how could you explain to me 481 00:21:10,930 --> 00:21:08,180 the action of how fluoride in the water 482 00:21:12,610 --> 00:21:10,940 works to help you teeth into it no one's 483 00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:12,620 ever asked that you then fully explain 484 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:14,240 to me how it works with the saliva and 485 00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:16,130 everything and the cycle and it all 486 00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:17,870 became very clear just do that people 487 00:21:23,530 --> 00:21:19,940 yeah yeah asked that question and also 488 00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:23,540 be prepared to believe the answer i mean 489 00:21:27,030 --> 00:21:25,510 the horrible thing about about backs 490 00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:27,040 is causing autism which still isn't 491 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:28,720 belief which is ridiculous because of 492 00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:30,070 this one discredited you know the story 493 00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:32,080 discredited by boat it's you know now 494 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:33,760 Robert De Niro's banging her bangla then 495 00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:36,970 to film festivals poor guy he's old he 496 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:38,740 doesn't know he's people get what your 497 00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:41,170 people and then I mentioned having a 498 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:43,300 child with that condition which it is 499 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,910 you get a bit going or maybe I haven't 500 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:47,200 been thinking wide enough and you think 501 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:49,330 of it to why exactly because you want it 502 00:21:52,530 --> 00:21:50,650 because you want to do the right thing 503 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:52,540 for your kids for your loved ones or for 504 00:21:57,210 --> 00:21:54,130 your friends so you want to entertain 505 00:21:59,520 --> 00:21:57,220 every possibility and sadly the internet 506 00:22:01,590 --> 00:21:59,530 is a beautiful world full of so many 507 00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:01,600 incorrect theories and websites 508 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:03,400 absolutely dedicated to them a good tip 509 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:05,320 though is if the website has got the 510 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:06,850 font that goes we've got the text goes 511 00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:08,200 right across the screen the black 512 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:09,910 background yet with photos that scroll 513 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:11,470 up and down the side and flashing things 514 00:22:15,150 --> 00:22:13,690 it's probably conspiracy but it's but 515 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:15,160 it's great to read if you had a couple 516 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:16,390 of wines I want to go through some of 517 00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:18,070 those YouTube channels it's a lot of fun 518 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:19,630 just don't believe it we've been a guest 519 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:21,370 on knowing animals i recommend people go 520 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:22,780 and listen to the next knowing animals 521 00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:24,490 podcast and i'll just fish on one last 522 00:22:28,410 --> 00:22:26,740 question if there was one type of whoo 523 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:28,420 is that if there was one type of 524 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:30,730 conspiracy theory if there was one that 525 00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:32,770 you would like to be real if you'd want 526 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:34,420 it to be real which one would it be of 527 00:22:38,430 --> 00:22:36,310 all the things it's easy it's easy main 528 00:22:40,140 --> 00:22:38,440 art it's the lizard people why wouldn't 529 00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:40,150 you want the David Icke stuff that will 530 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:41,800 just just that specific one I don't care 531 00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,180 what the moon's made of that stuff can 532 00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:45,760 go I just want the the people in control 533 00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:46,990 of the world to actually be 534 00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:48,430 shape-shifting lizard people because it 535 00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:50,590 would be beautiful I would love to know 536 00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:52,390 that the worst people in the world 537 00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:56,110 weren't humans thus completely absolving 538 00:22:59,850 --> 00:22:57,700 me of any guilt as being there's the 539 00:23:01,860 --> 00:22:59,860 same species of them and it would make 540 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:01,870 those YouTube clips where they pause the 541 00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:03,490 pit and zoom in on the people's eyes 542 00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:05,470 when you can see the filament liquid 543 00:23:09,330 --> 00:23:07,600 going across her eyes it would make 544 00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:09,340 that's like if you if that turned out to 545 00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:11,140 be true I'd be like I'm fine with that 546 00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:13,000 I'm and I'm happy to bow down to my 547 00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:14,740 lizard Kings where can we catch up with 548 00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:17,350 your website and your podcast I'll be a 549 00:23:21,810 --> 00:23:20,080 he-man grove or at dr. mcdougall on 550 00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:21,820 twitter dr. mcdougall on Instagram or 551 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:24,070 Lindsey mcdougal on facebook and can we 552 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:25,390 get your stuff on all over the place on 553 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:27,160 iTunes they just on friends'll robbery 554 00:23:29,420 --> 00:23:28,930 or your solo there as well Frenzel rom 555 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:29,430 is 556 00:23:34,490 --> 00:23:31,500 mostly stuff I did put out an album with 557 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:34,500 Jason from friends or on the album we 558 00:23:37,610 --> 00:23:35,730 called ourselves the self righteous 559 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:37,620 brothers and it's acoustic and it's 560 00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:40,110 really it's really just some of the some 561 00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:42,150 of the lyrical themes are horrific so 562 00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:43,440 you should really listen to that at the 563 00:23:46,490 --> 00:23:44,820 album's called love songs for the wrong 564 00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,500 at art by the self righteous brothers 565 00:23:59,930 --> 00:23:48,480 and it is on most streaming and download 566 00:24:07,470 --> 00:24:04,410 on Maynard condo you this is bunga bunga 567 00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:07,480 26 in today's show we'll have some news 568 00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:10,390 will answer your crank mail you get the 569 00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:13,630 crank mail no will have a burning social 570 00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:18,040 issue and Tim will solve the problems of 571 00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:25,340 thing that really irritates me about 572 00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:28,200 having multiple sclerosis is the 573 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:30,950 suggestions from complete strangers as 574 00:24:35,810 --> 00:24:34,170 to what I should be doing and taking 575 00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:35,820 these normally from people who haven't 576 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:37,620 got the condition as well of course 577 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:39,570 because the people who had the condition 578 00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:43,080 know that nothing works so thank you 579 00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:44,760 very much for your cures for the 580 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:47,580 incurable but maybe you should take a 581 00:24:52,370 --> 00:24:49,770 look at your own teeth before you start 582 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:52,380 throwing new cures around and to those 583 00:24:58,130 --> 00:24:54,810 chiropractors who chiropractor Phi 584 00:25:00,650 --> 00:24:58,140 babies I will see you in lockup baby I 585 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:00,660 will see you in the lock up with Tim 586 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:02,730 Ferguson and may not hear in bunga bunga 587 00:25:07,670 --> 00:25:05,400 26 please go to the bunga bunga facebook 588 00:25:09,530 --> 00:25:07,680 page go to planet main art and put that 589 00:25:11,660 --> 00:25:09,540 into your podcast receiving you'll get 590 00:25:25,889 --> 00:25:11,670 it whenever you do may not got home what 591 00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:28,509 once again we head to the web page of 592 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:31,100 the Australian skeptics skeptics calm 593 00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:33,110 today you there are a lot of very 594 00:25:40,529 --> 00:25:35,590 interesting articles at this website 595 00:25:43,450 --> 00:25:40,539 including the full-back library of the 596 00:25:45,870 --> 00:25:43,460 journal from Australian skeptics called 597 00:25:49,389 --> 00:25:45,880 the skeptic been in publication since 598 00:25:50,830 --> 00:25:49,399 1981 so thousands upon thousands of 599 00:25:54,250 --> 00:25:50,840 articles interviews reviews 600 00:25:57,940 --> 00:25:54,260 investigations free thei you to download 601 00:26:00,190 --> 00:25:57,950 as a PDF s going right back however this 602 00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:00,200 particular one published on the 11th of 603 00:26:05,529 --> 00:26:03,289 May written by Tim mendham concerns a 604 00:26:08,919 --> 00:26:05,539 story we have been keeping track of here 605 00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:08,929 on the skeptic zone some weeks ago we 606 00:26:12,970 --> 00:26:10,880 spoke to our reporter dr. Ricci about 607 00:26:15,129 --> 00:26:12,980 this very subject and this is all about 608 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:15,139 the University of Wollongong giving out 609 00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:19,730 area or rewarding a PhD based more or 610 00:26:25,509 --> 00:26:21,590 less on conspiracy theories when it 611 00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:25,519 comes to vaccines conflict among why 612 00:26:31,149 --> 00:26:28,820 lehmann PhD examiners is the title 613 00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:31,159 details have come to light about the 614 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:34,460 examiners assessments of Julie why 615 00:26:40,299 --> 00:26:37,760 lemans anti-vaccination PhD thesis at 616 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:40,309 the University of Wollongong with quote 617 00:26:46,389 --> 00:26:44,090 serious concerns and very critical in 618 00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,399 quote comments made about the 619 00:26:52,210 --> 00:26:48,799 anti-vaccination document that claims 620 00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:52,220 Pro vaccination conspiracies on a global 621 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:54,769 scale why Lehman has taken a leading 622 00:26:59,019 --> 00:26:57,010 anti-vaccination role for some time 623 00:27:01,990 --> 00:26:59,029 including presentations at 624 00:27:05,289 --> 00:27:02,000 anti-vaccination rallies and support of 625 00:27:10,629 --> 00:27:05,299 the Australian anti-vaccination skeptics 626 00:27:13,509 --> 00:27:10,639 network also known as avian or AV SN now 627 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:13,519 based on documents recently released by 628 00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:17,450 the university under a gip a Freedom of 629 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:20,120 Information request it has been revealed 630 00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:24,070 that one of two unnamed examiners who 631 00:27:30,669 --> 00:27:26,960 reviewed the thesis suggested it was 632 00:27:33,460 --> 00:27:30,679 definitely not worthy of achieving PhD 633 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:33,470 status and was far more in line with a 634 00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:36,350 master's degree level the examiner 635 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:38,070 expressed quote 636 00:27:42,290 --> 00:27:40,050 serious concern about the lack of 637 00:27:44,690 --> 00:27:42,300 engagement with existing literature and 638 00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:44,700 the lack of an appropriate theoretical 639 00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:47,580 framework in quote they also felt that 640 00:27:54,050 --> 00:27:50,670 the thesis showed no evidence that why 641 00:27:56,090 --> 00:27:54,060 Lehman conducted original research nor 642 00:27:59,180 --> 00:27:56,100 that it was demonstrated that she had 643 00:28:01,520 --> 00:27:59,190 made quote a significant contribution to 644 00:28:03,770 --> 00:28:01,530 the knowledge of the subject PEM quote 645 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:03,780 in fact the only areas where the 646 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:05,640 examiner felt while Eamon had met the 647 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:08,370 relevant standards were that it was 648 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:10,290 presented in a manner and level 649 00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:12,450 appropriate to the field of research and 650 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:15,180 the standard was adequate in other words 651 00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:17,490 it meant basic standards of presentation 652 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:21,150 a second examiner however quote praised 653 00:28:26,590 --> 00:28:23,730 the thesis and recommending awarding a 654 00:28:28,940 --> 00:28:26,600 PhD without revision and quote a 655 00:28:31,310 --> 00:28:28,950 university summary of the opinion 656 00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:31,320 suggested that the second examiner said 657 00:28:37,610 --> 00:28:34,230 it represented quote meticulous study 658 00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:37,620 unquote while the correspondence 659 00:28:42,290 --> 00:28:40,620 released is heavily redacted nowhere in 660 00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:42,300 what has been released is there an 661 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:44,640 indication by this examiner that they 662 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,250 thought the study was meticulous in fact 663 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:49,200 when asked as a matter of course if they 664 00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:51,090 had thought the thesis was quote 665 00:28:57,410 --> 00:28:54,120 outstanding and quote and recommended 666 00:29:01,720 --> 00:28:57,420 for special commendation and quote they 667 00:29:03,980 --> 00:29:01,730 answered quote know when quote 668 00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:03,990 considering these stark differences the 669 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:06,150 university decided to ask a third 670 00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:09,930 examiner to review the thesis of 32 PhD 671 00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:11,940 candidates submitted to the thesis 672 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:15,420 examination committee on December 3 2014 673 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:18,210 while Eamon was one of the only three 674 00:29:24,650 --> 00:29:21,330 where a third examiner was required the 675 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:24,660 third examiner also unnamed judged that 676 00:29:29,810 --> 00:29:27,810 while the thesis assessed showed why 677 00:29:31,790 --> 00:29:29,820 Lehman conducted original research it 678 00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:31,800 did not make a significant contribution 679 00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:34,380 to the knowledge of the subject and had 680 00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:36,630 no indication of a broad understanding 681 00:29:42,170 --> 00:29:39,870 of the discipline within which the work 682 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:42,180 was conducted and that it was not 683 00:29:45,650 --> 00:29:43,890 suitable for publication they 684 00:29:49,130 --> 00:29:45,660 recommended that the thesis be 685 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:49,140 resubmitted and gave quote extensive and 686 00:29:54,570 --> 00:29:51,910 detailed comments on the areas that need 687 00:29:57,150 --> 00:29:54,580 be improved end quote sharing the same 688 00:29:59,520 --> 00:29:57,160 concerns as the earlier critical 689 00:30:01,740 --> 00:29:59,530 examiner the extensive comments made by 690 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:01,750 the third examiner have not been 691 00:30:05,490 --> 00:30:03,670 released but their assessment was 692 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:05,500 described as quote very critical in 693 00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:08,110 quote by Patrick McGivern senior 694 00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:10,500 lecturer in philosophy and head of the 695 00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:12,430 postgraduate studies School of 696 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:15,040 Humanities and Social inquiry at the 697 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:17,650 University a revised thesis was 698 00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:20,050 presented by Y Lehman and only one 699 00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,510 examiner was asked for their views the 700 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:24,640 examiner who passed the original thesis 701 00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:27,270 without change was regarded as a given 702 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:30,190 presumably the revised version was sent 703 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:32,650 to the third examiner and that the 704 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:36,130 examiner who had serious concerns was 705 00:30:41,250 --> 00:30:38,410 not asked to look at the revised version 706 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:41,260 this revised version was approved by the 707 00:30:47,010 --> 00:30:43,810 third examiner McGivern told y lemans 708 00:30:50,010 --> 00:30:47,020 PhD supervisor brian martin that this 709 00:30:52,350 --> 00:30:50,020 was quote certainly a welcome result and 710 00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:52,360 quote perhaps indicating relief that the 711 00:30:56,790 --> 00:30:55,000 process was apparently behind them while 712 00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:56,800 humans PhD was approved by the 713 00:31:02,640 --> 00:30:58,810 university's thesis examination 714 00:31:05,370 --> 00:31:02,650 committee in November 2015 but if the 715 00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:05,380 university felt that this was the end of 716 00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:07,300 the matter they did not account for the 717 00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:09,640 reaction when the PhD was announced they 718 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:11,440 suddenly found themselves faced with 719 00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:13,810 criticism disappointment and even 720 00:31:18,030 --> 00:31:15,910 outrage from academics both within the 721 00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:18,040 university of wollongong and elsewhere 722 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:19,960 concerned members of the public and the 723 00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:23,110 media this criticism continues to this 724 00:31:27,420 --> 00:31:25,840 day the university has defended its 725 00:31:30,450 --> 00:31:27,430 decision on the grounds of quote 726 00:31:32,610 --> 00:31:30,460 academic freedom despite serious errors 727 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:32,620 and misrepresentations highlighted in 728 00:31:36,510 --> 00:31:34,690 the thesis it has not released the names 729 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:36,520 of the examiners citing quote 730 00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:39,010 long-standing policy and practice end 731 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:41,260 quote but also that it could have a 732 00:31:45,660 --> 00:31:43,510 quote detrimental effect on their 733 00:31:48,210 --> 00:31:45,670 physical psychological or emotional 734 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:48,220 well-being end quote in other words 735 00:31:53,250 --> 00:31:50,890 suggesting that the community critical 736 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:53,260 of the PhD may physically attack the 737 00:31:58,020 --> 00:31:56,170 examiners which verges on a libelous 738 00:32:01,440 --> 00:31:58,030 depiction of members of that community 739 00:32:03,540 --> 00:32:01,450 the university has not as yet responded 740 00:32:05,550 --> 00:32:03,550 to the Australian skeptics inquiries as 741 00:32:08,490 --> 00:32:05,560 to whether the awarding of a pH 742 00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:08,500 he can be reversed wollongong university 743 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:10,960 has been nominated for the bent spoon 744 00:32:16,770 --> 00:32:14,080 award by a large and growing number of 745 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:16,780 people and will keep skeptic zone 746 00:32:40,740 --> 00:32:19,810 listeners up to date as this continuing 747 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:40,750 saga continues the Darwin skeptics are 748 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:43,530 having their next skeptics in the pub on 749 00:32:48,930 --> 00:32:46,210 Thursday the second of june at the 750 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:48,940 parvis t'en tavern on chong wei terrace 751 00:32:56,370 --> 00:32:51,870 join the facebook group at facebook.com 752 00:32:57,900 --> 00:32:56,380 slash groups / darwin skeptics or just 753 00:32:59,910 --> 00:32:57,910 come down at six-thirty on the night 754 00:33:02,520 --> 00:32:59,920 then look for the group with the little 755 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:02,530 payable sign that says darwin skeptics 756 00:33:20,110 --> 00:33:05,650 that's Darwin skeptics in the pub second 757 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,160 Oh 758 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:27,810 thank you for listening to the skeptic 759 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:30,010 zone I hope to see some of you soon at 760 00:33:33,210 --> 00:33:31,930 the para con convention where i'll be 761 00:33:36,060 --> 00:33:33,220 speaking about the million-dollar 762 00:33:38,580 --> 00:33:36,070 challenge and micash challenges around 763 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:38,590 the world for the first person the first 764 00:33:43,230 --> 00:33:40,150 person who can prove they have 765 00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:43,240 supernatural or psychic ability now 766 00:33:50,190 --> 00:33:47,470 after 50 years we're still waiting will 767 00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,200 I be booed will I be heckled will I be 768 00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:52,480 given lunch we'll find out soon that's a 769 00:33:57,690 --> 00:33:55,270 Paragon coming up at the end of this 770 00:33:59,850 --> 00:33:57,700 month but for this week this is Richard 771 00:34:06,060 --> 00:33:59,860 Saunders signing off from Sydney 772 00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,070 Australia you've been listening to the 773 00:34:12,390 --> 00:34:08,560 skeptics own podcast visit our website 774 00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:12,400 at wwc a petting zoo TV for contacts an 775 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:15,700 archive of all episodes since 2008 and 776 00:34:20,910 --> 00:34:18,850 our online store please support the 777 00:34:24,270 --> 00:34:20,920 skeptic zone by following us on twitter 778 00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:24,280 at skeptic zone liking us on facebook 779 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:27,790 and leaving a review on iTunes you can 780 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:29,290 also show your support by subscribing 781 00:34:36,150 --> 00:34:33,130 via paypal for as little as 99 cents a 782 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:36,160 week the skeptic zone is an independent 783 00:34:40,260 --> 00:34:37,810 production the views and opinions 784 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:40,270 expressed on the skeptic zone and not 785 00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:41,860 necessarily those of Australian 786 00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:44,710 skeptical or any other skeptical